The EU Referendum.

[tony41]

Here is a question for the Leavers.

Are you also campaigning to leave the European Economic Area (EU + EFTA)? EFTA includes Norway, Switzerland and Iceland. If you are not campaigning to leave the EEA, then all claims that we will be able to "control our borders" are false. If we are still in the EEA we are still required to allow free movement of citizens of the EEA which is why Norway, for example, has to allow free movement of EEA citizens. I wonder if many people who might vote to leave do not realise this and may find that any immigration problems are not solved by leaving the EU. Also, if we do not leave the EEA, then we are still subject to EU regulations relating to goods and services. The only difference is that we will have absolutely no say in the formulation of these regulations. In other words, the worst of all possible worlds.

If you are campaigning to leave the EEA as well, then that is a totally different matter. We will then be subject to tariffs to sell our goods to the EU and will be covered only by weaker World Trade Organisation protection.

[MPS16]

Here is a question for the Leavers........If you are campaigning to leave the EEA as well, then that is a totally different matter. We will then be subject to tariffs to sell our goods to the EU and will be covered only by weaker World Trade Organisation protection.

Yes

But the EU needs to sell to us.


Just ask Germany about their annual car sales to the UK.

Just have a look at the Ranking of Germany's trading partners in Foreign Trade

https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigu...ublicationFile

It states that Germany's foreign trade balance with the United Kingdom for 2015 was + 50 976 367 000 Euros

Its a two way street so we put up tariffs to match theirs.

Interesting article today about the world and free trade here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36526845

[PetBazaar]

Yes

But the EU needs to sell to us.


Just ask Germany about their annual car sales to the UK.

Its a two way street so we put up tariffs to match theirs.

Doesn't that just mean though that, with no real UK alternative, consumers will continue to buy Volkswagens and BMWs like before, except that they'll be more expensive. But EU consumers will be able to turn to their own manufactured goods as ours become much more expensive?

[sidthelamp]

Doesn't that just mean though that, with no real UK alternative, consumers will continue to buy Volkswagens and BMWs like before, except that they'll be more expensive. But EU consumers will be able to turn to their own manufactured goods as ours become much more expensive?

what makes you think we cant buy japanese cars or from any other place, what makes you think german cars will become more expensive,what makes you think uk manufactured goods will become more expensive.

heres a awful lot of assumptions / scarmongering about trade with the eu, i doubt them with vested interests will allow trade to be affected to any great extent

[PATRIOT73]

Just had thru post wat dodgy dave &co say is a impartial (impartial my arse more like scaremongering properganda ) to eu referendum
Give u eg & i quote according to the leaflet,leaving eu wud damage the ecomony & force £36billion of cuts to publc services & nhs

now i see they threatening us wiv a emergency budget & more austerity cuts

[PATRIOT73]

Eu destroyìn britain n dodgy dave &cò keep telling us that leaving the EU would cost British jobs well heres proof that being ìn eu is costing british jobs...��
cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.



Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany

swiss remove application to join eu
https://www.rt.com/news/346884-switz...tion-rejected/

[PetBazaar]

what makes you think we cant buy japanese cars or from any other place, what makes you think german cars will become more expensive,what makes you think uk manufactured goods will become more expensive.

heres a awful lot of assumptions / scarmongering about trade with the eu, i doubt them with vested interests will allow trade to be affected to any great extent

My comment was, to put it in context, specifically in reply to the hypothetical tit for tat imposition of import tariffs.

However, that said, none of the assumptions I've made are particularly unreasonable.

Yes, you could buy a Japanese car. But that's no use if what you really want is an Audi, or Seat, or Peugeot or any of the European marques.

One of the main stated aims of "out" is to re-take control of our borders. This stance is completely incompatible with membership of the EEA free trade area. If we are not in the EEA then it's reasonable to assume that the EU will levy import tariffs on our goods. As far as I'm aware, pretty much every country in the world (not in the EU or EEA) has tariffs levied on them. There's no reason to assume that we will be the exception to the rule, paritcularly if we've just stuck two fingers up to both the EU and the EEA.

Then if the EU does levy import tariffs on our goods, do you really see our government NOT playing a game of "teaching Johnny foreigner a lesson" and retaliating.

The end result is that buying from the EU becomes more expensive, and the EU buying from us becomes more expensive.

I'm not saying that we'll be treated worse than any other country. I'm saying we'll be treated exactly the same and I'm fairly sure that that's not the definition of scaremongering. It may however be wishfull thinking to say that the EU will bend over backwards to accomodate us after we've snubbed them so badly.

[sidthelamp]

My comment was, to put it in context, specifically in reply to the hypothetical tit for tat imposition of import tariffs.

However, that said, none of the assumptions I've made are particularly unreasonable.

Yes, you could buy a Japanese car. But that's no use if what you really want is an Audi, or Seat, or Peugeot or any of the European marques.

One of the main stated aims of "out" is to re-take control of our borders. This stance is completely incompatible with membership of the EEA free trade area. If we are not in the EEA then it's reasonable to assume that the EU will levy import tariffs on our goods. As far as I'm aware, pretty much every country in the world (not in the EU or EEA) has tariffs levied on them. There's no reason to assume that we will be the exception to the rule, paritcularly if we've just stuck two fingers up to both the EU and the EEA.

Then if the EU does levy import tariffs on our goods, do you really see our government NOT playing a game of "teaching Johnny foreigner a lesson" and retaliating.

The end result is that buying from the EU becomes more expensive, and the EU buying from us becomes more expensive.

I'm not saying that we'll be treated worse than any other country. I'm saying we'll be treated exactly the same and I'm fairly sure that that's not the definition of scaremongering. It may however be wishfull thinking to say that the EU will bend over backwards to accomodate us after we've snubbed them so badly.

the £ has dropped in the last few days , its also gone up again today, a low £ means its more profitable to export manufactured goods, that creates jobs, it could also entice some of the manufacturing we have lost back to this country, ive no doubt the £ will fluctuate for a while till it finds its place again when we leave the eu.

importing of cars german cars might have a import tax imposed it might not, but on its own will not directly effect the cost, to the customer, the unit cost can be adjusted for example, it would be up to the importer working with the manufacture to use the tools available to stay competitive, there is already a import tax on new vehicles coming into the country have a look at the customs and excise site.

i do not see trade being effected to any great extent , sure there may be some sabre rattling to begin with but that will soon die down,

it is scarmongering to promote a campaign, saying " your going to be paying a lot more for your goods" when there are so many variables to a user end item, it is priced in a new market

as for the cost of a german car, i personally have never bought one , the main reason being there already comparatively expensive, i dont really pay for a name, if another name is just as good,again plant and machinery i buy is japanese , it does now incur import taxes yet it is very competitive in price, were as heavy uk plant is more expensive , yet its main market is abroad hence JCBs stance on the referendum.

[westlondoncarparts]

Eu destroyìn britain n dodgy dave &cò keep telling us that leaving the EU would cost British jobs well heres proof that being ìn eu is costing british jobs...��
cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.



Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany

swiss remove application to join eu
https://www.rt.com/news/346884-switz...tion-rejected/

People who want to paint the EU in the most negative light come what may will always spin events to support their arguments irrespective of real truth.

People who want to paint the EU in the most positive light come what may will always spin events to support their arguments irrespective of real truth.

In between are people like myself who always question what we are told and try to work out for themselves what the real truth is.

‘Eu destroyìn britain n dodgy dave &cò keep telling us that leaving the EU would cost British jobs well heres proof that being ìn eu is costing british jobs’.

I only started to research three of the examples in the list and the reality on the ground is significantly different to the hypothesis that it is the EU that has cost these jobs.

The lesson here is to check facts and not to take at face value statements made by people with axes to grind. And just because something has been copied from Facebook does not necessarily mean to say that it is correct.

‘Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant’
This is misleading. Ford Europe was making heavy losses in the years following the global financial crisis and undertook strategic reviews to identify where costs could be taken out of the business or reduced. It was decided to cease Transit production in Southampton and to move production to the much larger Transit production line in Turkey. The consequences of this action were reduced labour costs per vehicle (because Turkish labour rates are lower than British labour rates) and reduced corporate overhead costs (because the Southampton overhead costs were eliminated). Investment to fund increased production capacity in Turkey was by way of a commercial loan from the European Investment Bank whose shareholders are the various member nations of the EU. The EIB was set up to direct investment in accordance with the strategic priorities of what is now the EU. The point to note here is that the move from the UK to Turkey would have happened irrespective of the source of loan finance. It should also be noted that whilst the bank used for funding was the EIB, the funding was by way of a commercial loan and not by a grant from the EU.
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1002...Transit_plant/

‘Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant’
The full story here is that Texas Instruments announced the intention to close the Greenock plant and to transfer Greenock production to other more modern TI plants with higher production efficiencies in the USA, Germany and Japan. It is misleading to present this as job losses in the UK because of the EU.
http://stv.tv/news/west-central/1340...lant-to-close/

‘cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant’
This comment refers to the closure of one of the Cadbury factories in Bristol. It appears that there were two reasons for the closure. Firstly, a rationalisation of production facilities was taking place across the Cadbury Group following a strategic review into the direction of the Group. Production at smaller factories was being transferred to larger factories so that production economies of scale and reduction of overhead costs could be achieved, resulting in higher profits. The Cadbury plant at Bristol was closed so that its production could be moved to Poland where Cadbury had long standing pre-EU production facilities and where Cadbury would also benefit from lower wages costs. Secondly, factored into the Cadbury decision to close the Bristol factory was the calculation that substantive profits could be made by using the land on which the Bristol factory was built for residential housing purposes. The financials on this production switch look to be that the same decisions would have been made by Cadbury even if neither the UK nor Poland were in the EU so it is somewhat misleading to present this as job losses in the UK because of the EU.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/what...aying-11064526
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerdale_Factory

[sidthelamp]

People who want to paint the EU in the most negative light come what may will always spin events to support their arguments irrespective of real truth.

People who want to paint the EU in the most positive light come what may will always spin events to support their arguments irrespective of real truth.

In between are people like myself who always question what we are told and try to work out for themselves what the real truth is.

‘Eu destroyìn britain n dodgy dave &cò keep telling us that leaving the EU would cost British jobs well heres proof that being ìn eu is costing british jobs’.

I only started to research three of the examples in the list and the reality on the ground is significantly different to the hypothesis that it is the EU that has cost these jobs.

The lesson here is to check facts and not to take at face value statements made by people with axes to grind. And just because something has been copied from Facebook does not necessarily mean to say that it is correct.

‘Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant’
This is misleading. Ford Europe was making heavy losses in the years following the global financial crisis and undertook strategic reviews to identify where costs could be taken out of the business or reduced. It was decided to cease Transit production in Southampton and to move production to the much larger Transit production line in Turkey. The consequences of this action were reduced labour costs per vehicle (because Turkish labour rates are lower than British labour rates) and reduced corporate overhead costs (because the Southampton overhead costs were eliminated). Investment to fund increased production capacity in Turkey was by way of a commercial loan from the European Investment Bank whose shareholders are the various member nations of the EU. The EIB was set up to direct investment in accordance with the strategic priorities of what is now the EU. The point to note here is that the move from the UK to Turkey would have happened irrespective of the source of loan finance. It should also be noted that whilst the bank used for funding was the EIB, the funding was by way of a commercial loan and not by a grant from the EU.
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1002...Transit_plant/

‘Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant’
The full story here is that Texas Instruments announced the intention to close the Greenock plant and to transfer Greenock production to other more modern TI plants with higher production efficiencies in the USA, Germany and Japan. It is misleading to present this as job losses in the UK because of the EU.
http://stv.tv/news/west-central/1340...lant-to-close/

‘cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant’
This comment refers to the closure of one of the Cadbury factories in Bristol. It appears that there were two reasons for the closure. Firstly, a rationalisation of production facilities was taking place across the Cadbury Group following a strategic review into the direction of the Group. Production at smaller factories was being transferred to larger factories so that production economies of scale and reduction of overhead costs could be achieved, resulting in higher profits. The Cadbury plant at Bristol was closed so that its production could be moved to Poland where Cadbury had long standing pre-EU production facilities and where Cadbury would also benefit from lower wages costs. Secondly, factored into the Cadbury decision to close the Bristol factory was the calculation that substantive profits could be made by using the land on which the Bristol factory was built for residential housing purposes. The financials on this production switch look to be that the same decisions would have been made by Cadbury even if neither the UK nor Poland were in the EU so it is somewhat misleading to present this as job losses in the UK because of the EU.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/what...aying-11064526
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerdale_Factory

my favourite van the transit had various models over the years.

just a tiny winne correction for you to scrutinize fella, the eu gave turkey 80 million as a grant months before ford announced its move to turkey , guess what the grant was for , yep you guessed it to modernise the turkish plant so they could build the next generation transit there, if you had read a little further down the link you provided you would of seen the details of the grant, maybe you did! so without the eu grant its highly unlikly ford would of moved transit manufacture to turkey, funny how the eu instigated / made happen another loss of manufacturing to the uk,



Customs Union issigned with the EUin 1996. Exportsstart to increase.Incentives areintroduced forproduction inTurkey.

iwonder if the above will be a option for us if we leave the eu, the turks arent in the eu yet,

going back to the transit thing , the uk is still the biggest market for transit in europe , yet they move the production knocking on the door of the middle east,